Bsd
This post is intended for mature audiences. Readers, try to act your age, not your shoe size.
I met a girl in Israel. Frum girl. Dresses more tzniusly than me. Has a boyfriend - in all senses of the word.
I smiled and laughed and giggled and took pictures of her and her boyfriend and cringed (on the inside).
Tonight, I regaled my roommate with tales of my trip to Israel, the wedding of our friend, my host's three month old baby, and of course, this frum girl who is having sex.
"Frum?" My roommate raised her eyebrow. "I wouldn't exactly call someone having regular pre marital sex frum."
Well, I would. She's shomer Shabbos. She keeps kosher. She has sex.
She's definitely breaking Halacha, as she didn't go skinny dipping, as per Frum Satire's suggestion. But I think she's just screwing up, like so many people do. Doing something she shouldn't and rationalizing it.
Being frum, in my definition, is a matter of numbers. How many Halachos do you keep? You keep everything, but you apply makeup on Shabbos? Still frum. You keep everything but you buy non kosher candy? Still frum. You keep everything, but you cheat the government? Still frum.
Not a very good Jew, but still frum.
My roommate disagrees. She defines frum as an attitude. It's a way of life, a moral, ethical, G-d fearing way of life. Play around with it too much, and you're not frum anymore.
In English, I think frum means being observant and she thinks it means being religious.
What about you?
92 comments:
No way is this bad girl frum. There are three aveiros that are yahareig v'al yaavor. This is one of those. Would you call a murderer or an idol worshipped frum? Absolutely not. Is she a wonderful Jew? Of course. Does she have to shape up big time? You betcha.
how is this one of the big three? she's not married, like these swingers in CH i keep hearing about...
That commandment includes in it all forbidden sexual relationships.
Bichlal, I was thinking about it, why is it that generally we define frumkeit by very nebulous measures, e.g. standards of kashrus or tznius, while someone who violates biblical injunctions can be considered as frum as the next guy? Just wondering.
Regarding this girl though, is she stupid or what? Either marry the guy or don't do it. If she's such a believer...
This is also a good time to bring up what it says in tanya, that we are connected to Hashem through 613 strings as it were. Some sins you cut individual strands, some with multiple violations have really bad consequences. And then got kares, total spiritual excision. That's not a good thing.
it's not that i approve of this girl's actions. this is a big deal, and it's not a good thing. my point was - how do we define frum? despite her actions, i still consider her frum.
our definition of frumkeit is nebulous, just as you said. that's what i wanted to discuss. what do we consider frum? what are the boundaries?
I'm obviously not mature enough for this conversation (I wear anything from a seven to an eight).
This is an oddity within the modern orthodox.
So certain things define frum, yes? Eating shrimp on a regular basis means that you're not frum, even if you keep all the other halachos. End of story. Making out on a regular basis, even if you're keeping all the other halachos...sorry, this is much worse than shrimp, I don't think you're frum.
Anon: unfortunately this is not only a problem among the modern orthodox crowd.
TRS- the only issue is that she's nidda. Let her go to mikva, and there's technically no issue with a panuy and pnuya.
Cheerio- being frum is having yirat Shamayim. If she doesn't have enough yirat Shamayim to watch herself until she gets married, then she's not frum. On the other hand, I don't have yirat Shamayim, either. Sooo....
it is an oddity within the modern orthodox in as much as they don't reject the pre-marital sex outright. it's a policy question. people are having sex all the time, everywhere. surely that is not a revelation! the question is, do we preach abstinence (the orthodox way) or do we create terms like "tefillin date" (modern orthodox)
First of all, even if this was only an issue of niddah, that's still an issur kares, same thing as doing it with your brother or sister. So don't give me this whole "oh, it's not so bad" garbage. However, there is also an issue of prostitution here-the Torah forbids a father selling his daughter as a prostitute, and the same would apply here to selling yourself.
It's funny, it seems like I write the famous story of R' Levi Yitzchak from Berditchev at least once a month. Still, I guess it's needed, so here goes:
A bochur came to R' Levi Yitzchak and said that he needed a tikkun for sleeping with his girlfriend. "But it's not so bad," he said, "I made her go to mikveh first, and we waited seven days etc." R' Levi Yitzchak told him that there was no tikkun for his actions. The bochur was shocked-after all, he had tried to do the right thing! The great Rabbi explained, "I understand if someone has a big passion, an they can't hold themselves back. But if they have a big passion, and they wait for seven days, and they still do it?"
Also, regarding the frum issue: one of the major questions is, which direction are you headed, up or down? I would fin it hard to believe that this girl is in any way increasing her standards. Bichlal, I remember when a friend of mine got married at the age of 18, which is of course very unusual for a lubavitcher bochur. And you know what his mashpiim told him? They told him, "Very good, you did the right thing." For every human desire Hashem gave an outlet. You want it, do it in a kosher way.
Anon: I don't think any rabbi who calls themselves orthodox, no matter how modern, would agree that it's a policy question, nor would they ever hold of a so-called tefillin date. Are the people doing it? Yeah. Do they think it's all right? I don't think so.
That is the second time I've seen you write that story in the last month.
It's a real story? I believe it's a real story it's just which drosh did I fall asleep during that I missed that one.
I have no idea if it's a true story or not. Who knows if any story is true or not?
My question is I guess, is it from a legit source? It is just a wild story.
Yeah, it's a legit story. As far as I can recall, I've seen it in several places, and I've heard it from other people who I trust not to make up stories.
BS"D
Firstly, let's recognize that being frum, literally means strict or stringent.
There are certain Mitzvos that Hashem can so-to-speak look over, and then there are the "biggies" that define us as a chosen nation, as the nation of G-D.
Abstinence before marriage is one of those Mitzvos that define us as living a G-dly life. It goes a lot deeper than recognizing the worth of your body, and self-respect.
Relations between man and wife are one of the most holiest times. A bedroom is considered a kodesh kedoshim. When a person desecrates the Beis HaMikdash would you call him frum?
Desecrating the sanctity of frum relations, on a regular basis, is not just falling into tayvos. It is a desecration of one of the fundamental principles of our faith.
TRS: You repeatedly display your ignorance. If the girl goes to mikveh, she is not transgressing any issur min hatorah. Way back in the day, you could get flogged for eating shrimp. But you'd get nothing for having a "tefillin date."
fg: typical feminine reasoning.
Actually, rava would flog people who were mekadesh through biah.
irrelevant to my main point
So according to you I can go play around as much as I want?
If the girl dunks, you aren't over an issur min hatorah.
if she's a pre-dunked girl, no min-hatorah issur has been transgressed. (hyphen-propagation efforts)
And our friends in the rabbinate?
After a little research I found out that in fact it is an issur d'oraisa, as detailed very nicely on askmoses, where a rabbi latowicz brings from the Rambam, Ramban, and others who clearly state that is is forbidden from the Torah, though they argue about which passuk it's from. One says that it's because you shouldn't spread zenus throughout the land, while another says that it's a negative learned out from a positive-since the Torah commands us to marry, doing things outside of marriage is forbidden. Unfortunately, the link stopped working, but I'll try and see if I can find it again later.
thank you for finding that. it's always good to know exactly what the halacha is.
but i still want to discuss the broader question: what exactly does "being frum" mean? is it a social thing? a halacha thing? i mean, in the days of the Sanhedrin, there wasn't any such concept. Even in the days of Rambam, the concept of frum vs not frum didn't exist. It's only in the last couple of centuries, with Enlightenment, where you have large segments of the Jewish population who don't follow a majority of halacha that we even have this concept.
So in my opinion, even if someone is repeatedly doing something that is 100% wrong, depending their approach to other areas in their life, i will consider them frum or not.
פרום=פיל רשעות ווייניק מצות. א גאלאך איז פרוםץ א איד מוז זיים עהרליך. און איך וועלל נישט איבערזעצן. עס גייט אנטקעגן מיינע רילעגיאזנע גלויבן.
So back in the day, the world was black and white. Either you were a good Jew, or you weren't. Truth is, that's a major generalization. In reality, when you look back at the historical record, you'll realize that a lot of shtuff was going down. Regardless.
If a person sins to "get" G-d, then they're a rasha, a min, apikores, whatever it is. If they're just sinning because they enjoy it then they're a sinner, but they're not evil. Your friend presumably falls into the second category.
Lefi anias daati, she's not frum, because frum implies that a person is trying their bestest to keep the Jewish religion. Your friend is obviously not doing that.
YIVO: you can comment on a girl's blog, but you can't translate?
TRS care to translate? The only words I understand don't really help me. "Un ich vell nisht" ain't getting me anywhere.
Basically, he says that frum is roshei taivos many sins, few mitzvos. A priest is frum, a Jew has to be ehrlich. I will not translate, it goes against my religious beliefs.
Hmm, TRS where'd you get that translation from? Since when are you the Yiddish expert? Or did a little birdie tell you?
Hmm, YIVO, had any good chats with TP1 lately? Or were you distracted by the singing of the birds?
BS"D
e- it might be a "typical" feminine answer, but it's not wrong.
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/237,137532/What-is-the-Torah-source-prohibiting-premarital-sex.html
Fab ... Pre-marital abstinence is not mentioned as a mitzva which makes one holy. It's an interesting pshetle, but it is logically and legally flawed.
TRS: what can I tell you, you're simply wrong here.
You don't like Latowicz?
trs, i'm not saying that there weren't jews in every generation who failed to keep torah and mitzvos. but to me the term "frum" merely indicates someone who is generally observant of torah and mitzvos. someone who is "a person trying their bestest to keep the Jewish religion", is someone that i would call "religious".
this girl is observant, i.e., frum. to me, her failure to keep from sinning in this way is not a contradiction to her observance in other areas, so i'll call her frum. not my level of frum, which i hope is more on the level of someone who's religious, but frum.
there's so many different levels of frum these days. your definition of frum is very restricting, and leaves out a lot of people.
Since when was there an inyan to be inclusive? Barack Obama I am not.
the words "ahavas yisroel" ring a bell?
The words "tachlis sinas sinasim" ring a bell?
no, try them in english, please.
King David says in Psalms (139:22), "I hate them {sinners} with a consummate hatred." Go learn Perek 32 for more info.
hate the sinner, not the sin?
You learned what it says there or not?
ashamed to say i have not yet. but it's 2 am in california, and 5 in my head, so... wanna summarize?
Go learn, it's short, you'll thank me after.
but then i'd have to get off the couch... allright, i'll get back to you tomorrow.
Sounds like a plan.
No need to get off the couch... chabad.org, the source of all jewish info online!
do they pay you to say that kind of stuff?
He wishes.
Stockholm Syndrome
work conditions are that bad?
It's probably a million times better than my job.
e: Best comment I've seen in a long time.
le7, the grass is always greener on the other side. Just today I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice to sit behind a desk in Lubavitch House and file papers, rather than dealing with all the nuttiness that I have to put up with.
Then again your boss learned from my boss.
like what? i'll let you guest post about craziness at chabad.org...
TRS, you should start using this style comments. One can click on a link in the e-mail and be taken directly to the comment form, unlike on your blog, where one must click (1) on the link to the post, (2) scroll down to the bottom, (3) click "post a comment," and finally (4) click "jump to comment form."
There is no way in hell I'm connecting my chabad.org self with my blogging self.
Not true, you can click on "jump to comment form"
Yeah, but how do I get to the "jump to comment form" from the e-mail?
did you read my comment?
Fine, give me a sec...
Azoy? You give in without a fight?
I'm too lazy to fight.
folks, take his temperature, something's wrong with him...
I'm supposed to be hand grating potatoes for latkes...
Ah. Fun. I'm hiding out. You wouldn't believe how many grandkids they've got stuffed upstairs. Over twenty at least.
You should join in!
I went upstairs to bentch Chanukah licht. I even checked nine heads of lettuce and made salad for all of the wee ones.
No thank you sir. I had a brilliant post a' brewin' when I was climbing the countertops to find her milchig serving platters.
So post it.
It's not brilliant. It's another obnoxious self reflection sort of thing. But I'm writing it now.
I can't wait.
I had to take a break to steal some latkes and lasagna. back to the grind.
BS"D
e- out of curiosity, do you write for Chabad.org or do you program the site, it's functionings etc.? Either way, hands-down it's the best site in existance. I use it for work all the time!
Okay it's up. Go heckle me.
Sounds like a lose-lose sitch when you try to squash someone into a label.
brand them as "nonfrum" and they say "wee!" and chuck everything else out the window
pat them on the back and say "frum" and they happily continue on their merry way, not even bothering to try to fix anything
well, not really. but you get the idea
So the obvious answer is, there is no answer!
Just to backtrack for a sec: What I mentioned earlier about the Modern Orthodox movement... Check out this TV show in Hebrew that is very popular is Israel. It's called "SRUGIM" and you can find whole episodes on VEOH.com
what's it about? are there english subtitles?
it is about modern othrodox singles living in israel. it's like the show Friends with the added elements of Shabbos tables, Tefillin dates and which Kippah attracts girls outside shul on friday night. funny stuff!
unfortunately, no english subtitles.
After our discussion I realized that I had forgotten about the idea that gilui aroyis is one of the sins you have to die before commit...in light of that I think that wrongdoings in that arena carry significant weight. As much as murder, actually. (In terms of your relationship with G-d). And in terms of the law there's a difference between premeditated murder and killing someone in the heat of the moment...of a serial killer versus one time offender... habitual, premeditated premarital gilui aroyis is, as much as just about anything else you can name, something to disqualify someone from being frum- whether you translate it to mean observant or religious. The lifestyle erodes in a very serious way both of these ideas.
Also you forgot to mention my other point....that something that crosses just about any line or barometer you might set for terming someone "frum", that this act can't be looked at in isolation... the circumstances and frame of mind that led to the act mean a whole lot. Many people struggle with things and rationalize them and are still frum,but think of the rationalization that must go into this act as opposed to all others.
People like to get "biblical" when they talk about sexuality/shomer negia, as opposed to looking at the canon of thousands of years of oral/Rabbinic law, as well as the spirit and values that make up the totality of Jewish history and mesorah. Sexual purity is something that defines the Jewish people and always has. The laws we have about premarital sex are misinai, and the spirit of the lifestyle of our great-grandparents is to be revered and emulated.
A deep respect for oral tradition is essential to being "frum" (as opposed to "not frum but Jewish and trying"). That's why it bothered me to refer to someone in this unfortunate position as frum.
Anyway, I know this discussion is dead, but I thought I'd put on the record some of the things we discussed that didn't make it here...
Being frum is not about not getting any “automatic fails” on a road test of life. God created us with the instinct to sin, everyo ne is batteling their own inner demonds , and many a time giving in; and sinning. and who are we to judge which sin is THE SIN to dub you not frum any more … Being frum is about the processes. Its about being involved in your relationship with god and being committed to working to improve it , even if no improvement occurs. The exact opposite of frum is apathy, someone who not only does not care about his relationship with god but is completely unaware of it .....
I find it fascinating that the object of the story was dressed very “tzneusly” which seems to be an obvious indication that she is trying , she’s in the process… trust me coming from a female myself dressing modestly is quiet a challenge ...( don’t say she is dressing “very “Tzneut as a result of societal pressures Because if she doesn’t mind making it clear she are sleeping around im sure she is not embarrassed to show a knee.)
As the holy Reb zusha of Annapolis said while seeing a jew oiling a weal while praying – only in this nation are they always thinking of you God even while oiling a weal…
May our holy brothers and sisters go from strength to strength….
Reb Zushe of Annapolis? Cute try, but it's R' Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev.
Ash- guess who i met today? a bais yaakov graduate, l;ong skirt, dresses very frummy like, guess what? she has a boyfriend. "in all senses of the word". I wqould not call that frum because if you keep most of torah and mitzvos, and u..dont have a very frum lifestyle...(***, etc..) then i woukldnt call them frum. Its a lifestyle, its a way of life.
The main idea here: is to act like a Jew, and not spend time critiquing others' and whether yuo consider them to be frum or not - Because really, who are any of us to judge.
Oh and TRS suggesting that this girl "prostitutes" herself is way out of line. Perhaps your mind fails to see this, but a prostitute is one who does it for money, not w/ her boyfriend. Please show more respect towards women, even if you don't approve of their ways.
Prostitute is...
a person who willingly uses his or her talent or ability in a base and unworthy way.
--
To offer, as a woman, to a lewd use; to give up to lewdness for hire. "Do not prostitute thy daughter." --Lev. xix. 29.
--
To devote to base or unworthy purposes; to give up to low or indiscriminate use; as, to prostitute talents; to prostitute official powers. --Milton.
--
Openly given up to lewdness; devoted to base or infamous purposes.
--
A woman giver to indiscriminate lewdness; a strumpet; a harlot.
--
The notion of "sex for hire" is not inherent in the etymology, which rather suggests one "exposed to lust" or sex "indiscriminately offered.
--
a person who engages in sexual activity indiscriminately
--
happy?
no
anon: we LIKE judging people.
Re: no: I wasn't asking you.
Re: judging: true dat
Post a Comment